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Procedure for CP evidence?

Computer forensics discussion. Please ensure that your post is not better suited to one of the forums below (if it is, please post it there instead!)
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dcso
Member
 

Re: Procedure for CP evidence?

Post Posted: Feb 10, 07 22:20

Speaking of impact...if I were to take an image and go straight to the police with it, there would be significant impact...my employer could be sued, I may be sued, and I most definitely will be fired.


Is there any law that requires you to report this to police? I believe some states have enacted legislation to address repair shops, service techs, and I assume CF.

It seems odd that reporting a crime would get you sued. I can somewhat understand why, but still seems odd. Smile  
 
  

armresl
Senior Member
 

Re: Procedure for CP evidence?

Post Posted: Feb 10, 07 23:48

You are surely led to believe that if you know of "any" crime that has been committed the FBI would like you to report it to them.

If you are in the private sector the ramifications of doing this and possibly being wrong are monumental. You can 100% forget doing any more work in this field. I have been around hearings where a person such as a worker in a large retail type outlet called the FBI on what he though was CP. Turned out it wasn't and the guy got reamed bad. While you think you may be getting a new friend in a G-Man, you may also open yourself up to a civil lawsuit in which you did nothing wrong but find you need to defend yourself and pay large attorney costs.

First one would ask what would make you able to be an expert in the area of CP to be able to tell that the images were in fact illegal? Then one would wonder if there were any agreements or contracts signed between you and the client where there are privacy issues or issues of privilege.

You can also look at the charge on it's face and say that CP possession is CP possession regardless of where you got it from. Don't think that people who examine hard drives and stumble upon contraband haven't been charged and subjected to the stigma that goes with that type of a charge.
I in fact worked on a case where a person dropped off media to a computer shop operator and the worker discovered it contained problem material, he called the FBI and they arrested him, charged him, and convicted him (with mandatory minimums he did some time in Fed system) on possession charges.

OF course this is all IMHO and your counsel, my counsel, an AUSA, Judge, or other counsel might all have different opinions on what should be or should have been done.
_________________
Why order a taco when you can ask it politely?

Alan B. "A man can live a good life, be honorable, give to charity, but in the end, the number of people who come to his funeral is generally dependent on the weather. " 
 
  

wilber999
Member
 

Re: Procedure for CP evidence?

Post Posted: Feb 11, 07 02:29

I am a bit confused (or I misunderstood some posts).

I have read here to call your lawyer, examine around the CP, go straight to the FBI, and don't go straight to the FBI to avoid a civil suit if you are wrong.

The post by armresl concerns me the most about a repair guy getting convicted and doing time after calling the FBI. Is there more to the story than they found CP while servicing a computer and called the FBI?

It is starting to sound like my chosen career is like playing Russian Roulette with these hard drives.

Can someone clarify what to do if we run across it?
My contract states that I "will immediately cease its examination and advise CLIENT and appropriate law enforcement authorities of the nature of the materials found". Is this wrong?  
 
  

armresl
Senior Member
 

Re: Procedure for CP evidence?

Post Posted: Feb 11, 07 02:53

Actually, it wasn't CP, that is why I used "problem material" it was a case of suspected terrorism and the person accused was a white American, never been in trouble before for anything and ran a very successful business for lots of years.

I have witnessed cases though where there were low level tech guys from large nationwide retail chains where the charges were for CP.

It's a judgment call on you and your counsel's part.
Several people are going to have several different answers, that doesn't make mine or anyone else's right for your situation.

Just trying to provide you with information from experiences I have had.
_________________
Why order a taco when you can ask it politely?

Alan B. "A man can live a good life, be honorable, give to charity, but in the end, the number of people who come to his funeral is generally dependent on the weather. " 
 
  

armresl
Senior Member
 

Re: Procedure for CP evidence?

Post Posted: Feb 11, 07 03:05

- wilber999
I am a bit confused (or I misunderstood some posts).

I have read here to call your lawyer, examine around the CP, go straight to the FBI, and don't go straight to the FBI to avoid a civil suit if you are wrong.

The post by armresl concerns me the most about a repair guy getting convicted and doing time after calling the FBI. Is there more to the story than they found CP while servicing a computer and called the FBI?

It is starting to sound like my chosen career is like playing Russian Roulette with these hard drives.

Can someone clarify what to do if we run across it?
My contract states that I "will immediately cease its examination and advise CLIENT and appropriate law enforcement authorities of the nature of the materials found". Is this wrong?





Advise client and appropriate LE can be rather vague. Who is the appropriate LE? Who makes the decision on who is the appropriate LE?
Do you act the same in every instance of this? Based on the following wording you just have to contact any law enforcement agency, doesn't even have to be in your home state. But that is their wording and what you have differs from that.

If you look at the code, you probably don't fall under those guidelines.
BEGIN CUT AND PASTE

"Creates a mandatory reporting requirement for electronic communication service providers, Internet Service Providers, and remote computing service providers to report violations of federal child pornography laws to any law enforcement agency and/or the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children."


You may want to look up 2252(a)(4) and 2252A(a)(5)
_________________
Why order a taco when you can ask it politely?

Alan B. "A man can live a good life, be honorable, give to charity, but in the end, the number of people who come to his funeral is generally dependent on the weather. " 
 
  

mark777
Senior Member
 

Re: Procedure for CP evidence?

Post Posted: Feb 11, 07 03:23

keydet

Read your reply with interest re your procedure and I realise that we are in different legal jurisdictions but I am interested to know you views on the following if you could:

If you find CP images and stop your examination and give the drive back to the client what happens if the client is the person who put them there. They are not gonna contact LE. Do you have any procedures in place to ensure that LE becomes aware or indeed can you inform LE without the clients permission.

I notice you mention being sued in certain instances but what would be the outcome if you gave a disk back to a client who was the perp and he (or she) subsequently abused a kid and it come out about your drive and CP and nothing had been done about it. Would that leave you open to action being taken against you?

Also, in this country, if as a LE officer I discovered that a private practice investigator had come across CP on a drive and returned it to a client without informing LE then in all probability he/she would be arrested for distributing illegal images of children. Is there nothing like that over there you are leaving yourself open to.

All in all I do not envy you the position that you would find yourself in.

Please understand I am not making any criticism of any of your policies, I am just interested in how you deal with the problem you have as a private sector investigator when you come across someone who may be or have evidence of child abuse.
_________________
Mark 
 
  

ddow
Senior Member
 

Re: Procedure for CP evidence?

Post Posted: Feb 11, 07 04:22

Mark,

This particular scenario starts many lively discussions in which the differences are really centered on jursidiction. The best advice of all so far was to consult your own attorney before even taking a case.

Cheers
_________________
Dennis 
 

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